Transcript Episode 22 - Plant-based Meals in Schools with Jodi Gruhn

Karla Moreno-Bryce: Well, hi Jodi. Welcome to the show!

Jodi Gruhn: Hi, Karla. I'm so happy to be here with you. 

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  Yeah, I'm really excited for you to be here because your work involves with plant based meals, to schools and organizations. And as a vegan pair myself this is something that I challenge with, with my oldest, with sending, you know, our kids to school. And so I'm excited for you to share, more up to our listeners about, what your work involves.

But before we do that, why don't you share us a little bit about, you, where you're from and what led you to a plant based lifestyle here? 

Jodi Gruhn: Well, I am born and raised here in Minnesota. I have never left. I am still here. I thought because I married somebody who, isn't is a transplant, that maybe he'd want to go elsewhere. But he tells me this is the best place in the world. He said this is the place you want to be. You'll just want to move back. Which I have seen happen with many of my friends. So, I've been here, my whole life, and, I, I, found a plant based lifestyle. Actually, I was vegetarian for many years. And then it was, you know, that that story of seeing that footage of factory farms and, like, just going, oh, my gosh, like, never again.

But I didn't really have the knowledge around sort of the, the dairy, the dairy industry, to understand kind of that there was like next level. So it really was me going to a Veg Fest. Actually it was going to a Veg Fest and taking the time actually, as a new mom, one of the first things that I did for myself was there was this thing that I read about called Veg Fest, and I jumped on my bike one day and I left the baby behind with my husband.

And like, I don't think I had done that yet really before. And I went to this thing called Veg Fest and I was like, oh, like, you don't have to eat dairy and eggs like you, like you can be really healthy. You can, you know? So I sort of discovered this new path. And I think within three months I had fully transitioned to becoming plant based.

And then after that, I got involved in the movement and started doing advocacy, working for a local organization. On actually that very same event for many years. So, it was kind of a full circle kind of thing. And now I actually work for the organization doing doing this work and outreach in schools.

Karla Moreno-Bryce: That's amazing. And we I want to hear more about your work because I think it's really important and it's something that we need right now, especially as more families choose to raise kids on a plant based lifestyle. Now, I know you have two school age kids of your own.

Jodi Gruhn: Sure do. 

Karla Moreno-Bryce: Tell us a little bit about your experience with school lunches, because I know that this is a challenge that many of us face. And, I know that many of my audience want to hear more about what other parents do.

Jodi Gruhn: While my kids are a little older. So I have one that just started high school, and then one that's in, middle school. So they actually have more sort of agency to ask for what they want and need, which I know is harder for the little ones. And that's kind of when the parents, you know, when we need parents to be kind of stepping in and being advocates for, for their families.

With my own children, I think what even got me really interested in school lunch was I was packing a lunch for them when they were little most of the time. But then I went and saw a it was called an Ed talk, and it was put on by like a civics or organization. It was down at the Icehouse and Bertrand Weber from Minneapolis Public Schools was there speaking.

And he was really passionate about school nutrition and really passionate about what we are feeding our kids. He's not vegan by any means, but he was much more interested in scratch cooking, building out kitchens or putting kitchens back into the schools and really feeding kids more whole foods. And that was something really interesting to me. And I was just like a light bulb went off that this was happening in my own school district and I wasn't I wasn't paying attention to school nutrition.

I was just like, I think it's probably not going to be great, so I'm just going to pack a lunch. And that's really what made me kind of get involved. And so I started volunteering in the school lunchroom. Actually, Minneapolis Public Schools did something like true food. It was true food taste tests. And they would bring it kind of cultural and interesting foods for kids to try.

And they all ended up being plant based. When I did this, some of the sampling and you'd walk around the kids and they would try these foods and they'd give you feedback. And, I came to realize that that's what a lot of schools actually do to introduce new menu items. And you get feedback from the students. So it was seeing him that kind of got me interested and then started getting my own kids like, okay, let's see what school lunch will be like for you.

And then the reports would be back. Well, I asked for this, but I still came with cheese, so I just pulled the cheese off and just ate the bread. Or, you know, there was a lot of that, happening then, and it's still happening now. So I think there's progress and we can talk about that. But I think that, you know, generally kids are having to kind of make do with what is available and then kind of like create the lunch that they want to eat with, like kind of what is provided for them.

Karla Moreno-Bryce: Right. Yes. And it's great that you as your kids, now that they're older, they're able to advocate more for themselves. I know with my oldest, she's going into first grade now. To her, it doesn't come as natural as maybe to other kids or older kids until we do have to pack a lunch. And there's not many families who are fortunate enough to have schools or daycares or other, you know, facilities that provide plant based meals to their kids. So it's it's hard for us and it's hard for our kids too.

Jodi Gruhn: Well, and it's really hard for people who are on, you know, limited budget and income, especially now we're calling this like universal meals. We're calling it free school lunch for everyone. But actually, like, if we really want to dig down on like a definition of what that is, it's not for everyone. So, right, you know, we're working on that and kind of trying to work on messaging around the idea that like these meals need to be universal. So every child should have access to food that is nourishing and delicious and fits their needs.

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  Yes, I totally agree. Which brings me to a point of wanting to talk a little bit more about your work with wholesome Minnesota, because it focuses on bringing plant based menus to health care and educational settings like hospitals and schools. Now, when working with schools, specifically, what are common misconceptions that schools have about plant based meals? Because I anticipate that they have a lot of objections about, offering plant based meals.

Jodi Gruhn:So, yes, there are definitely objections. But I also would say that there's definitely a new openness that I have noticed in the last few years. When I first started this work, I could hardly get phone calls with people or I mean, let alone a meeting. And now I like I speak at the school nutrition conference and I have sessions that are absolutely full.

So people are curious about this. They know that there is a growing demand for it. And that it's coming, you know, that eventually they're going to need to be providing this stuff, these particular meals. I would say one still common misconception is that it's expensive. Cost really isn't it's not expensive, plant based, especially if we're talking about whole food plant based.

You know, rice and beans are like some of the most inexpensive foods on the planet. And that's what, you know, many of us who have plant based households, you know, like that's like a staple and almost I don't know, I think that's something we have 2 or 3 times a week, you know, different kind of concoctions and varieties.

So it doesn't have to be expensive. It can be expensive when we're looking at like the meat analog products like Impossible Burgers are expensive. They're expensive in our own homes. They are also expensive for schools. But also though, if we wanted to, you know, if we're looking at those kind of products, they aren't providing them for the entire student body.

So actually, you know, that expense argument, even for those meat analog products, doesn't really necessarily hold true. But it's easy to come up with these menus. There's tons of menus that have actually been created and school nutrition approved, you know, lunches, menus that are available to all school nutrition directors that I have access to. I have partners around the country that have this stuff that, you know, like, can meet any budget, basically.

So, cost is one thing, the difficulty. Oh, it's just too hard. Too hard. Well, you know, we're providing meals for kids with allergies. We're, you know, I mean, kids that have actually, you know, like physical conditions where they can't ingest certain types of foods. You know, when we're providing those kind of things for those kids, we could also be providing like if a kid if a child can't, you know, is lactose intolerant.

Also, those kind of meals could be provided similarly to a kid who has the need for a plant based or vegan meal. So there's ways to do that. And, and also there's just ways to default our meals in a way that makes them naturally more accessible for everyone by, you know, replacing the meat with beans, or a meat analog product or just some crumbles or something like that.

So it's just not as hard as people think. And if you think of like even things that, you know, most many of us eat like pastas, bowls, wraps, things of that nature, they're filled with tons of things other than cheese and meat. They're filled with vegetables and pickles and, you know, lots of delicious things. So there's ways that ways around this that, that makes it not very difficult at all.

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  And yes, I agree, I think it's definitely possible. And it's not something that they have to, you know, start from scratch because, you know, someone like you who can come in and help implement a menu or even just slight changes so that it's it is inclusive for kids who choose to eat non-animal foods. And so I think the idea behind bringing in plant based menus, yes, it's something new, but it is something that it's possible for, for schools to, to offer.

Jodi Gruhn: I would also want to mention one thing and this will come up again. But it's just saying, you know, that we hear a lot of that the kids won't eat it and there just isn't a big demand for it. And there isn't. I mean, there there isn't the huge demand that I think a lot of us who live this way are like, everybody wants this.

You know, there is a small percentage of us that live this lifestyle like 100%. Where it's growing is the conventional eaters. We know that, you know, it's like 60% of Americans are reducing their meat intake. So that is trickling into our families for sure. And that means families are doing things like Meatless Mondays or, some variety of that where they're just not eating as much meat and people want that option for their kids,

So, that's the thing that I would like, I like to come back and say is just like, if we're looking at progress and progression and market demand, I think you will see that if you offer these types of meals, they will actually, you know, be the uptake will will be great. And the thing is, though, they have to be good. They can't be just a second thought. It's like nobody likes a mushy black bean burger. I don't like. And especially if it's just put on a bun with like, no sauce or lettuce or, you know, anything. And it's called just like a vegan black bean burger. Like, that is not selling, selling anybody anything. You know, call it something delicious and add, you know, like the spicy. It could be go. 

This is a spicy black bean burger. Kids love them. And you know throw on like some spicy sauce. Saucy burger I don't know like we have to come up with like our marketing and create ways that all this food is enticing to not just our plant based and vegan kids, but to the overall population of children.

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Now, you know, from covering ideas about how certain organizations or schools may have challenge or objections about bringing in plant based meals, you shared with us a little bit about some of the workshops and talks that you have with others, like at school nutrition conferences. Tell us a bit more about what they are saying and kind of where, like where do they want this to be in terms of, school nutrition?

Jodi Gruhn:So what I'm just seeing is generally more interest, for sure. So when I spoke at the so this is what this is a cool thing. Last year was my first year speaking at the Minnesota School Nutrition Conference, and that's where all the nutrition professionals come in and they have educational programing. They get CE credits. And then there's like a big exhibit hall, which that's a whole other episode, probably to talk about who's in those exhibit halls, you know, marketing food to the people who purchase food for our

So I did a presentation and it was jam packed, one year. And I was the only person talking about plant based this year. There were three different sessions on plant based. So that is generally showing, you know, forward momentum in this category. All the sessions had, you know, had people in them, some were more attended than others, but it was us and farm to school not like that were had kind of the largest kind of representation I think of kind of those, those ideas or programs.

So that was really exciting to see. And I only see that growing. And I think it is because demand and people are hearing more that the students want it. But they are still saying that they aren't getting the demand that they would expect for hearing all of this information about what's happening in the markets. And they're saying it's just not translating to schools.

And I mean, I have a lot of opinions about that, you know, especially if we're talking about younger students, again, talking about the quality, what we're putting out there. But they're they're interested. And I also spoke, I did a presentation, a zoom for the same group, over, in April. And I focused on the environment.

And that was where we really dug deep into the fact that, like, being a school nutrition professional is really a climate job. Like, if you think about it and you think about, like, food waste, I mean, everything that we think about the packaging, we put everything in and with school Lunchrooms being like the largest restaurant in the United States, that's a huge impact that they could have in all of those areas. And so just talking about generally plant based and its impact around the environment, I think that's a trigger for some.

I think generally there is that health concern and, you know, that, you know, the, the noticing of whether they know the stats or not, they can see the students walking through the door, what they look like, what they feel like. They know that kids are suffering with mental health issues. So I think school nutrition people are have like huge hearts and they want to do good, but they are forced to do a job with like no budget, super tight regulations and rules.

And then they have parents that have demands as well. So what I also want to say to all of us, you know, who are out here, like advocating for our kids, knowing that this is the right thing for them is that we need to understand, you know, kind of who these people are, what they're working in, what the climate is like for them, and then find a way that we can create a win win for for all of us. And I think creating partnerships and collaborations are definitely the way to do it.

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  I agree, and thank you for sharing that, because I don't think many of us as parents who are not in that environment really see what these individuals have to factor in when bringing in meals for students. Like, you know, there's regulations to follow, there's certain standards to to meet. And so I do agree that school nutrition does have a big impact for kids, because many kids, these are the only meals that they have throughout the day.

And so if we can be an impact for them, then we should. Yeah. You know, I do remember my first job as a dietitian was, creating it was working for an independent meal service provider which provided meals for charter schools. And part of my role was not just about creating the menus for for schools, but, you know, it was also following nutritional guidelines and also, cost and stuff.

But there were other logistics with actually meeting those meals to the students, like, how are we going to ensure that there's, the right temperature. So to consider food safety, how are we going to transport them at the right time to each school. And so there's all these other factors that, you know, school nutrition staff have to consider. So thank you for bringing that to our attention. 

Jodi Gruhn:it's just a very complex environment. And I think that a lot of times we just want to snap our fingers. That's the way I was. I'm like, come on, can't you just do this? But really I think we like we can't just snap our fingers and like, fix something that's kind of been going, chugging along for years the way it's been going. I think it's going now in the right direction with just a lot of people are noticing.

I think school nutrition has become a way bigger interesting topic that has expanded more, and I think parents are more interested in nutrition than they've ever been. I think students too, like they're demanding like a decent quality meal, you know, like I think with the advent of social media and all the influencers, and I think that students palates have grown so much more mature, and they're much more just interested in food and a good meal like food is a big deal, and it's just part of our DNA, who we are, how we define ourselves.

And that's the other thing, you know, with school food is just that whole idea of does our food reflect back at us who we think we are, you know? So that's another place where I do see a lot of growth is like in, in involving the cultural, inclusivity piece. And really a lot of schools are doing really cool things to meet the needs of, like our Somalis students, you know, our Hispanic students, like they're actually trying to find source, the right spices to make a dish actually authentic instead of just inspired by and just adding a spice that might not, you know, like actually fit the dish. I just spoke with a school nutrition director just last week, and that's what she she was telling me about that, and I was just like, oh, so beautiful, so beautiful.

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  And so speaking of that, why can't we expand our inclusivity to plant based meals where it doesn't just necessarily have to be for kids who are vegan or kids who are plant based. But, you know, with you mentioning accommodating individuals from other, other cultures, why can't we speak about more inclusivity across the spectrum of food? Do you think that that's something that school nutrition staff might be inclined to do?

Yeah, I do actually, but I think that we actually have to come at it from so one. So I would say as I was thinking about this, I was thinking about the, the, the strongest voices, like often can be voices that maybe we wouldn't think of as being, the most impactful. And that could be around religious communities.

We have, there's a religion called Jane. And they, we have, a large I don't know how large it is, but they do a festival that I just went to, this, this early summer. And it was wonderful. But they do not eat any meat, and they are talking a lot more about dairy, because dairy in India is very different than dairy here.

So that's the religion where they need to have these meals provided, vegan meals provided basically to like live a life of no harm, you know? So I think that that is going to resonate a lot more than unfortunately, just us having our if it's ethics, you know, our unfortunately, I don't think that's that's going to be the, the the argument that makes makes the change.

I also think too that it might not be us. It's going to be our conventional eater partners. So if we do have friends who like to eat plant based a couple times a week, or like to feed their kids that way a couple times a week, their voices and coming together with them are going to be able to move the dial much more quickly than if it's just us vegans getting together and, you know, trying to to make change.

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  Yeah, I like hearing that. Can you share with us a little bit about some of the successful case studies or examples of schools or districts that have effectively implemented plant based meal programs? 

Jodi Gruhn: So I have evidence or I should say I have, anecdotal evidence, of kind of what's happening here locally. So that presentation that I did this spring, in April around the environment just took a quick poll of the, you know, I don't I think it was like 50 or so people that were on the call. And there were some that said that they served a plant based option every day.

Most of them were in the 2 to 3, kind of, you know, times a week. Which is great, actually, because I would say a couple of years ago that would have been zero. So that's great. We did have we've had school districts interested in signing pledges to go, you know, a certain percentage plant based.

But, a lot of times that gets scary because, again, it's going to be based upon demand. And if they sign a pledge, then they feel like they're going to need to serve it. And you know, so we've kind of moved a little bit towards, just helping out as much as possible and just sharing recipes and sharing marketing tips and doing all that kind of stuff.

I would say our partners on the coasts are actually having a lot more success, and I think it's going to trickle down in here. But, you know, New York, New York City public schools, they have like a plant powered Friday. And I think they might even have a Wednesday that they do. They have successfully put in default veg into their hospitals, where every meal served in the particular hospital system is default veg, like vegan meal

And you have to ask if you want meat, which makes so much sense when you think of somebody coming out of surgery or something, or they're in the hospital for a condition, it makes sense to be provided with something that's very healthy and wholesome, maybe as you're starting to recover. So I like to see I mean, I love seeing that.

And then of course, in California, they've been doing great work and, they've had actually a lot of pilot programs and things that have been actually funded by their government to get, you know, do some pilots around plant based milk and different food items? So the coasts are like our beacons, but I think it's trickling in. We also have, you know, Illinois, which signed into law, you know, that any student that requests a plant based meal can get one.

So if a student requests a plant based meal, they can actually get it in in Illinois all through the state. So that's pretty cool. And we're starting to see that kind of legislation pop up around.

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And the reason why I wanted you to speak more about that was mostly just to bring hope for other parents who are, you know, waiting for that to happen locally for them. And so what do you think we can learn from their experiences from where you're seeing, other schools or areas that are implementing such plant based meals.

Jodi Gruhn: So, I mean, it comes from leadership. So we as you know, parents can all get together and try to make things happen. But we know that if we have a strong leader in government that can help push things along, that is where we can actually see change policy and legislation, can cause a lot of change. Or it forces change.

Actually, I think we still have work to do and definitely boots on the ground, is super important, because we need to educate people in power and people who are the decision makers that this is important to us and important for our kids future. So really, I think it's, you know, if you see what happened in New York, like it's a mayor, you know, it's the mayor of New York City who is driving a lot of this and has put in policies that, that make all of this really possible there. 

In terms of hope around here. I like I said, I just see momentum shifting. I see only more options occurring in school districts. We've gotten reports that there's going to be hot lunch items in one district at least every single day that are vegan. And I just see that continuing to happen. And I think as parents, honestly, creating collaborations with our school nutrition directors, but also within our own communities, and especially with those parents who are conventional eaters, that is where I really think the hope is, is if we can just all rally behind, like the health and wellness of our kids and of our planet and recognize like it's the right thing to do to just move in this direction. Not everybody has to be 100% plant based, but if we can move in this direction, it's going to be better for everybody.

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  Yep. Now, for parents who want to advocate, but they may feel a little shy, or they may feel afraid to speak up. What advice or strategies would you give to them?

Jodi Gruhn: Well, the first thing which you can always do super quietly is send an email, you know? So, the first thing is, you know, contact your school nutrition director if you don't know who that is or you don't know quite how to find that person, you can contact me and I can help you find out who that person is in your district.

So I'll give you my information at the end. So super happy to do that. I also have, you know, emails and scripts and things like that, that I can share. So you don't even have to start from scratch. You can put that into kind of your own voice and with your own concerns. But the main thing with that reach out, that initial thing is to be positive, to be complimentary of the work that's being done, noticing wellness, noticing inclusivity. You know, all of those kind of things that are really important and words that are being thrown around in schools right now, I think is really important.

But tell people what kindness and stay positive, that's going to be like the first step. And then after that, I mean, if you don't even feel comfortable with the email piece of it, contact me. We can talk. And I can also see if there's other parents that I've ever talked to before in your district. There's been some districts where I've reached out, parents have reached out, and nothing happens.

You know, and sometimes, like goes away or sometimes we just keep knocking at doors. But I can tell you that, when I've worked with student groups and they're not heard, this actually happened at one high school. They took it to the school board. So I think that if if you don't get any, and it it's not even commitment, it's if you just don't get a response, then it's when you sit, that's when you start going to administration

And and because the, the superintendent is that person's boss. So if, if they are going to be unresponsive to you, then take it to the superintendent, and start having those discussions there, but also to if you are comfortable in your, in your school and you can start kind of a community like if you're part of the PTO or the PTA.

Like that's a really great place to start discussions around school nutrition or even just family nutrition. And through my program, Wholesome Minnesota, we come in and we do talks and we do little cooking demos and classes and stuff where we could even show how to. We could show what a school lunch meal could look like. That's plant based, to like, different staff members, you know, we can talk to teachers, you know, it's it's all about education.

And a lot of times, you know, people don't know how to implement this or create these meals just because they haven't had experience with it. So I'm sure all of us, any of us that didn't grow up vegan, we had a learning curve. And, I know I did, and I feel like I'm still learning all the time and I think it's so fun.

But yeah, this food is really fun and it's for everybody. And we just need to kind of let people know and educate people. The other thing I would also mention, too, is looking up to see if your school has a wellness committee or wellness initiatives, and if they do have a committee and they allow volunteers and parents to get involved, that is a great place to to start as well.

If you don't want to start those conversations with school nutrition right away or anything, the wellness parents are going to be your friends. So they're going to be your people. And it's great. That's a great way to start creating community as well.

Karla Moreno-Bryce: Wonderful. Thanks for sharing those. I think our listeners are going to feel inspired to choose the right approach that they feel comfortable with in advocating for it, not just their own kids, but I think for all kids who who attend, those particular schools. Now, before we go, I would really like for you to share where someone can reach out to you if they want to learn more about Wholesome Minnesota, or just more about how they can be an advocate for plant based meals.

Jodi Gruhn: So Wholesome Minnesota is just wholesome dot Minnesota with a wholesomeminnesota.org. And you can just go to the website, you can kind of see what what we've been up to. There's some articles there about things that have been happening, you know, kind of with the progress of plant based, and there's ways to reach me there or else you can just reach out at, Jodi Jodi.ghruin at Explore Veg dot com.

Karla Moreno-Bryce: Thank you. And we'll leave those links and the email as well in the show notes so that our audience can listen to those. 

Jodi Gruhn: And absolutely reach out. That's my whole job. You know, my whole job is to partner, create collaborations, work with you, work with your students, help your kids to, if they need talking points and, or if they want to start an initiative at their school like I help with pilots, I help with collaborations, you know, really, the sky's the limit and I'm happy to work with anyone.

Karla Moreno-Bryce: Thanks, Jodi. And thank you for coming on the show to share your insight and the wonderful wealth of knowledge that you have in bringing plant based meals to schools and organizations. 

Jodi Gruhn: Right. Thanks, Karla. 

Karla Moreno-Bryce:  All right. Thanks, everyone.